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It is "physically impossible" for the Xbox One's graphical performance to catch up to what the PS4 is capable of, Just Add Water CEO Stewart Gilray has stated in an effort to dismiss inaccurate reports attributed to Oddworld creator Lorne Lanning.

A report on Xbox Achievements was titled, "Performance Gap Between Xbox One And PS4 Will Disappear, Says Oddworld Creator," but this is said to be inaccurate.

"Actually that is NOT what he said," Gilray told Worlds Factory. "I spoke to Lorne afterwards and what he meant when speaking to that guy was that budgets, schedules and perceivable differences would narrow, NOT that the Xbox One performance is improving to align with PS4, that is just physically impossible. The PS4 has MORE COMPUTE units, and faster memory and a whole bunch of things, that would make that physically impossible to happen."

VideoGamer.com Analysis

It has been reported that Xbox One will see benefits of DirectX 12, but it's unclear how much performance will be gained. Likewise, Microsoft is working on freeing up the GPU resources currently held back for Kinect and OS functions.

Source: Worlds Factory

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Lalaland's Avatar

Lalaland@ Techhero

Your statement is a fascinating self contradictory mélange of fanboyism and desperation, let's look closer (by the way full stops don't bite).

Quote:
Originally Posted by techhero
You are sir are ignorant moron Dx12 is exclusive to Xbox One as does PC
It's exclusive to two platforms?
Quote:
Originally Posted by techhero
where as Ps4 uses a linux kernel simply put and will not be as optimized as a Pc
XB1 does not use Windows. XB1 uses two custom O/S, one is GameOS and bears little resemblance to Windows, the other is a highly optimised experience that is capable of running 'universal' windows store binaries, this also is not Windows.

PS4 does not use Linux. PS4 used the BSD kernel. No one has ever, ever described a Unix like kernel (BSD, Linux, solaris et al) as unoptimised and been taken seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by techhero
and Xbox one dx12 driver and the Xbox one does fully support dx11 and 12 it was designed around
DX11 code does not run on XB1 and never will.
DX11.x code runs on XB1 today.
DX12 code does not run on XB1 today and when parts are brought to XB1...
PC DX12 code will not run on XB1, MS has been touting the ease of porting in the future not that you won't have to port.
Quote:
Originally Posted by techhero
it stop trying ro sugar coat the fact that ps4 is as good as done now with Jargon you really dont know ***** about as an end user even Amd Nad Nvidia second the many benefits that windows devices will have Sony Ps4 will be left behind
XB1 is not a Windows device, some of the DX12 tech will make XB1 faster but by single to low double digit percentages.

Stop reading the MisterXMedia blog, it actively damages brain cells.
Posted 13:59 on 09 April 2014
Techhero's Avatar

Techhero

You are sir are ignorant moron Dx12 is exclusive to Xbox One as does PC where as Ps4 uses a linux kernel simply put and will not be as optimized as a Pc and Xbox one dx12 driver and the Xbox one does fully support dx11 and 12 it was designed around it stop trying ro sugar coat the fact that ps4 is as good as done now with Jargon you really dont know ***** about as an end user even Amd Nad Nvidia second the many benefits that windows devices will have Sony Ps4 will be left behind
Posted 22:15 on 08 April 2014
Lalaland's Avatar

Lalaland@ Techhero

You have no idea what any of those words mean.

To humour you and to explain why your post is complete guff I will elaborate. PS4 uses a custom low level library called GNM which is close to the metal, they don't have DirectX because they have no need of it (the O/S being a BSD variant). Any ofthe developer post mortems (I recommend the Infamous: SS one in particular) will happily show a high level of multi-threadedness and an abundance of draw calls (the two things that are the biggest wins for DX12 on PC)

The XB1 uses a custom variant of DirectX called 11.x, this is nothing like DX11 and a lot of the changes to DX12 are coming from the XB1 to DX12. DX12 will influence DX11.x and may even bring improvements to XB1 but the simple 'OMG DX12 = 100% more powah!' is utter horse puckey.

If MS current API was as bad as some seem so desperate to imply right now then we'd be lucky to get last gen graphics let alone something like Ryse.

Edit: for clarity and to correct an error, GNM is not an OpenGL variant
Posted 19:39 on 08 April 2014
Techhero's Avatar

Techhero

DX12 has already been confirmed to double the processing efficiency of the GPU and allow for all 8 cores on the single stack CPU to significantly increase the graphic and processing power of Xbox One and Dx12 support is exclusive to MS and windows products as Ps4 runs linux and does not support dx12 even thought the hardware could the linux OS doesnt .AmD , Nvidia have already praised this new update coming to all windows devices not only will this allow 1080p at 60fps but a range of more procesing ability that doesn't evwn include Azure Ms cloud processing..Ms Team Xbox is coming out swinging this article you have is now redundant Xbox One will be on a whole new level of graphic and processing power with DX12
Posted 16:39 on 08 April 2014
Lalaland's Avatar

Lalaland

Deary me and I thought this thread had largely escaped the attention of the zealots from both sides, some reasonable points surrounded by sock puppets.

ESRAM is not a cache it's a scratchpad, it's a subtle difference but a cache is transparent to developers (ie 'it just works' and is managed by the memory sub-system on silicon) and a scratchpad has to be explicitly filled and emptied by code. It's working out what does and does not need to be in ESRAM that is the trick here. In discussions on the B3D forums folks who appear to know such things point to items like static shadow maps as being appropriate to leave in DDR3. Other ways to optimise for ESRAM such as using FP16 format data rather than FP32 and other tricks where appropriate.

It is still a pain in the arse though which is why these early 3rd party games are suffering so bad on XB1. Much like the 256+256 setup of the PS3 caused much grief to developers compared to the simple unified 512MB setup of the X360. Worse yet the various tiny dedicated pools of memory that the SPUs had access to required very careful engine design from the get go (or you'd trash RAM). The worst case scenario was pretty much any UE3 title for the first few years of PS3 as that engine was never designed for 256MB of system RAM.

Long story short let's wait until Xmas and the PS4/XB1 only 3rd party titles to see how much of a real impact all this stuff has on IQ and FPS down the road.
Posted 16:08 on 07 April 2014
justerthought's Avatar

justerthought@ hellogames

You are so wrong. Running 12 compute units 6% faster will never make up for the missing 6 compute units because that is a 50% difference. The XB1 GPU is lame compared to the PS4 GPU. Both consoles have two redundant compute units because it's too hard to manufacture a GPU with all cu's perfect, so PS4 has 20 reduced to 18 and XB1 has 14 reduced to 12. It allows for errors so you can make consoles faster.

The fast ESRAM cache can only offer the high speed to 32MB of data at any given point in time. Any small chunks of data that the GPU requires regularly is placed in there by the move engines, but everything else is running through slow DDR3 RAM. GPU's need huge amounts of data fast when calculating game graphics. The best ESRAM can do with MS updates is allow devs to calculate and draw the frames in 32MB tiles, saving them to a frame buffer in the DDR3 RAM and then displaying them when ready. But that method of working is extremely inefficient and limiting when performed in realtime with a moving target such as a computer game. It's fine for rendering static non interactive HD movie frames.

Games are written as generic code scaleable game engines, so a dev can't afford to re-write a game just for one platform in order to support tiled memory usage. It's too messy. The best that can be expected is that MS automate the process via a dev kit upgrade, but the conversion process will always be a performance drain because it is not native to the original game engines memory usage architecture. The same applies to HUMA (Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access) on PS4. In order to get the huge benefits of such a system, the game has to be written in that format, so only expect that level of performance from the Sony 1st party studios.

Getting back to the ESRAM issue. High resolution textures and thousands of game assets have to be quickly pulled up from the hard drive into RAM, so the GPU can use them to calculate each frame in real time. The XB1 ESRAM is too small to hold all the assets needed to draw a frame, so they have to be placed in slow DDR3 RAM. The result is the XB1 GPU cannot draw the frames fast enough because it's constantly waiting for data from the DDR3 RAM. A classic bottleneck. The only solution devs have is make the frames smaller with less pixels, or draw less of them by reducing frame rate, or reduce eye candy making frames simpler, or allow half drawn frames with hideous screen tear.

PS4 runs all data at the high speed because all the game assets are loaded into GDDR5 RAM, so the GPU can get at the data quickly and rapidly draw each frame. XB1 cannot match that level of performance fluidity. That is why PS4 can hit 1080p and XB1 cannot. It never will because the lame hardware design is cast in stone and no amount of software updates or efficient drivers is going to make that go away.

Forget CPU comparisons, they are more or less equal and are of lesser importance for gaming. Having a powerful CPU and low latency DDR3 RAM is only of benefit for general purpose computing like the stuff you do on PC or for a multimedia machine. Latency is only an issue for general purpose computing where you are rapidly using a huge amount of very small data sizes. Such as Microsoft Office or a complex Windows OS with multilayered processes running in the background. Embedded ESRAM can actually help in those situations because it can store the small relevant data needed by repeating loops.

For gaming, the biggest hurdle is high resolution graphics streamed in real time, so you need a powerful GPU with fast GDDR5 RAM. Multiple processors are run in parallel inside the GPU using data that often has a large file size, so RAM latency is just not an issue. High bandwidth and data speed is king. That is why PS4 is a game focussed design and XB1 is a multimedia focussed design with gimped gaming functionality.

Think of latency like a cars acceleration, and bandwidth as the cars top speed. A race on a long straight road only has one acceleration. After that the top speed is the winner. A meandering track will not make much use of the top speed because you're constantly accelerating. Gaming with its emphasis on large graphic files is like the long straight race. General purpose computing on a bloated multipurpose OS is the meandering track.

The sooner you realise all that, the sooner you can make the decision if you're happy with that situation, or whether you want to jump ship and enjoy next gen games at a higher quality.
Posted 01:16 on 07 April 2014
QuintonStevens's Avatar

QuintonStevens@ Lalaland

True. In both generations, the Xbox counterpart has just been a little bit behind when it comes to games.
Posted 22:05 on 06 April 2014
QuintonStevens's Avatar

QuintonStevens@ Vylsith

DirectX 12 will reduce the API overhead that current DirectX version have problems with.
Posted 22:05 on 06 April 2014
QuintonStevens's Avatar

QuintonStevens@ hellogames

Are you *****ing retarded? The Xbox One does NOT have a higher memory bandwidth at all. That's not how eSRAM works. You can't just *****in' add them up and say it's bigger. Since it's only .004% of the total memory the XBone has, it should be added fractionally, if anything.

Let me explain to you what eSRAM is and how it's meant to be used. eSRAM is basically a small little cache. A cache is meant to contain files that the CPU knows it will need to use maybe like 8+ times. Cache is meant to be read from about 10x more than it is meant to be written to. What you're trying to accomplish is writing to the cache as often as you're reading from it. That just doesn't work.

The Xbox One will only have it's ~68GB/s bandwidth because the eSRAM doesn't actually increase the bandwidth as much as you think, simply because it is so small. 1080p60 is NOT ever going to be easy for the Xbox One if it wants to compete with the pure graphics fidelity of the PlayStation 4. It just can't do it. The GPU on the PS4 actually has 20 COMPUTE UNITS, but 2 are simply used as backup. That means that there are 80 vector units, each having 16 stream processors, making 1280 stream processors.

Compared to Xbox one, 14 compute units, making 56 vector units, making 896 stream processors. That's like comparing a 260X to a 270X. They're not even in the same series. It's also like comparing a 7790 to a 7870. The 7870 clearly is simply just better than the 7790.

Also, DirectX 12 will be on the Xbox One AND the PS4. So idk what you're going on about.
Posted 22:04 on 06 April 2014
skidoosh's Avatar

skidoosh@ Jhtrdht

I'm guessing you really like your Xbox then?

And maybe you shouldn't be such a coward, creating an account just to have a pop at me.

And CPUs do not run at max all the time do they sweetie. The PS4 CPU does have the capability to run at 2.75Ghz but is capped at 1.75GHz (taken directly from the official PS4 speck). A firmware update could up that cap in the future.

And I do regret the typo made in my previous comment i did mean GDDR5 not DD5, which is still far superior to DDR3.

Isn't 1:08am a a bit late for a 12yo t be on the internet? Don't expect another response, unless you learn some manners. And use your real account next time.
Posted 17:54 on 06 April 2014
hellogames's Avatar

hellogames

Microsoft confirmed 32mb of ESRAM is sitting by the GPU. Its exclusive to the GPU and its not used by anything else. ESRAM has a higher bandwidth cycle than 8gigs of DDR3 ( Thats not including the 8gigs of DDR3 already fitted on the motherboard) So there is no logical reason for the x box 1 to be struggling to hit the 1080p and 60 frames target.

Its more likely game developers have not optimised for it and some game developers may have just bypassed the ESRAM altogether and just used the 5gigs of DDR3 available for games on the motherboard. It would explain the performance differences with multiplats at launch.

5gigs of DDR3 just isn't enough to hit 1080p and 60 frames, but if you use the 32mb embedded ESRAM 1080p and 60 frames ican be easily done. The x box 1 actually has more memory bandwidth than the PS4.

The GPU in the PS4 has a better performance ouput, but after 14 CU's work on it downgrades.

PS4 GPU came with 18 CU's but only 14 CU's are been used by developers.

XB1 CPU has 14 CU's only 12 CU'S been used.

Power difference isn't that great because the CPU in the x box runs at 1.75ghz the Sony CPU 1.6ghz, this increases the CU performance on the x box 1 by 6%

So both machines in time with perform identical. X BOX 1 may actually turn out to be the better console with directx12
Posted 15:51 on 06 April 2014
justerthought's Avatar

justerthought@ Lalaland

ESRAM usage will improve and become more efficient, but it's the choice of using ESRAM and DDR3 instead of GDDR5 RAM that is causing the bottleneck. The GPU is constantly waiting for data and cannot draw the frames fast enough. That is never going to change because the hardware is fixed. The gap between PS4 and XB1 will widen as games get more complex, especially open world games that rapidly stream large amounts data in real time, drawing game assets on the fly. Open world games are the future by the way, so XB1 is in a really bad place. Open world on XB1 will not be much better than open world on the 360. Open world PS4 will be superior in every way.
Posted 08:38 on 06 April 2014
justerthought's Avatar

justerthought@ lolzatfanboyz

Why? Is it too complex an issue for you to get your head around. It's easy. PS4 is extremely powerful and XB1 is lame due to a gimped GPU (12 compute units instead of 18) and zero GDDR5 RAM. Add those two together and you have major problems running next gen open world games.
Posted 08:02 on 06 April 2014
Jhtrdht's Avatar

Jhtrdht@ skidoosh

2.57GHz yeah right the ps4 can't reach that clock, with its stock heat sink and fan. It's currently clocked at 1.6GHz Sony did confirm this.

Tbh you don't know what your talking about do you?

Gddr5 not dd5
GHz not GB
Posted 01:08 on 06 April 2014
lolzatfanboyz's Avatar

lolzatfanboyz

you guys crack me up LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !
Posted 01:00 on 06 April 2014
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