Microsoft's console not as capable as PS3 when it comes to folding proteins.
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-First my comment wasnt based on my opinion. Second you can read. VP was asked, (After being asked if he thought the power of the 360 could be useful, he said: "Possibly, although the cell processor in the PS3 is much more powerful for our calculations than the CPU in the Xbox 360.")
-Also the article said, "There is still no word on any plans for the folding@home project to embrace the Xbox 360, but we're sure that many Xbox 360 owners would be more than willing to help out such a good cause."
-He didn't say, "well Microsoft are a bunch of panzies and (Microsoft is NOT eagerly keen to develop the program for their X-Box)", thats what u said.
-If you analyse his statement he is basicly saying PS3 is more powerful and 360 isnt, we wont compare the two and we are sticking with the PS3.
-My statement was implying that if there are "more than 250,000 unique users having registered, delivering nearly 400 teraflops of computing power," for the PS3, then the millions of people registered for xbox live could double or triple that output. Thats all I was saying!!!!!!!
-Oh wait ur right I did have an opinion, Vijay Pande is a sony lover.
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To save you the reading i'll sum it up for you:
- there has to be an application to be developed by MS or someone else for it to run the Gromac core.
- the CPU of the X360 is by far less capable as the one in the PS3.
- the only real use would be the GPU which is a one way or the other related to the R5XX core. As I mentioned related this should imply (and does) that you can't just port the client for the existing GPU's (ATI 1XXX) to the X360, so the same applies as above.
- knowing how HOT the X360 runs under normal conditions and how HOT ATI GPU's get when running the client for it (I have some PC's doing that) this WOULD turn into a major problem.
-MS decided to pull out of Stanford's project on the funding level.
Draw your own conclusions and YES, as nice as it would be to have the possibility to add 1 million possible folders to the project, the question still remains if it is worth it.
When it comes to sheer CPU power, a PC with a Q6600 will outperform the X360 by lightyears. Keeping the announced pricecuts for these (and other C2D's) in mind, don't you think they will be more common very soon and thus any effort to concentrate on those would subsequently yield more result's ?
If MS really saw the chance to put the X360 into folding without exposing it's weaknesses in comparism to the PS3 (it has it's stregth in other fields), they would have done so. Stanford just doesn't have the resources to do clients for all platforms and thus priorities have to be set.
It's just not fair to accuse Vijay Pande of such thing as being a Sony lover.
CarstenLast edited on Mon 28 May 2007 by ceemosp
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-Also there has been no INDEPENDENT STUDY AND/OR COMPARISON OF THE TWO SYSTEMS, just their "numbers" have been compared. Im not talking about a game play test, which should be the main issue, just performance. Gamespot did a graphics comparison of the two. They show the 360 had better graphics for some of the games the two systems share. This really should not matter since self titles for systems usually recieve more graphical attention, like the upcoming Halo 3 for 360, and heavenly sword for PS3. Also no company has offered to test the two. So no one can say MS chickened out if no one has offered to test the two systems.
- Besides u are still missin my point Vijay Pande said, "Possibly, although the cell processor in the PS3 is much more powerful for our calculations than the CPU in the Xbox 360," after being asked if he thought the power of the 360 could be useful. If his statement doesnt say I LOVE sony, then it says I HATE MS. Like u, u must love sony. U give PS3 and sony so much praise but hate on MS and the 360.
-You are also missing the point of the 360. The 360 is a seventh generation console. MS created a system the world was ready for, a great system with a decent price tag. Now in my opinion, the PS3 should be an 8th gen console. I say this because of the technology it has, blue ray and other things, and its price. Also by the time game developers figure out how to use the PS3's processor at around 90% and above, it will be time for an 8th gen console. Why do you think so many original PS2 and PS1 titles are coming the the 360. Game developers see that the PS3 just isnt selling, which means people cant buy their games. The PS3 isnt selling as much because it is ahead of its time. Dont get me worng though, PS3 IS HERE TO STAY. It's gonna wait for its time.
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It all boils down to how much output we can get with given work. Stanford has no unlimited resources when it comes to development of a new core. They can make the client run a core but itself has to come from Gromacs.org or MS if they want to have their XBoxes in included the game.
Stanford does NOT develop the scientific core but the infrastructure to use them and the individual projects.
All cores so far have either been developed by Gromacs.org or have been adapted by a manufacturer (ATI). So effectively the ball is in MS field!
OK, I very much assume that some people at Stanford had a very close look at the X360 (it's not around since yesterday only) and came to some conclusion. Obviously the potential was either not seen or not there!
I tend to lean towards the latter, as some of the guys/girls at Stanford can recite the compiler structure for any given cpu/gpu in their sleep.
The XBox, as you noticed correctly makes up for the lack in cpu power by its graphics adaptor.
To make it shine one would have to use it to the limits of it's capabilities.
Another fact is the temperature issue with ATI chips. It's not news that they operate hotter than other GPU's. The folding rigs I use (X1600Pro and 1950XT run at temperatures beyond the 70ºC and are passing the 80ºC in summer. Mind you, they run in tower cases with additional fans and non standard Zalman coolers. The temperatur readings are coherent with both AtiTools and AtiTrayTols, so they can be taken as given. I assume you can imagine what problems I see in the X360 case.
An additional problem when using the graphics engine for calculations is it's lack of flexibility. It's very much limited to a very specific kind of calculation type due to it's architecture. Current GPU clients are using DX9c. How do you want to implement that in the XBox? So again, a new core has to be developed.
That is why the Cell processor of the PS3 has more scientific value for Stanford as it is more flexible in it's structure and can do various types of calculations.
I am not sayng that it is automatically the better console for gaming but for folding it is and that's the topic of this thread.
So by stating a fact one gets accused of being a XYZ lover or fanboy ?!?
IMHO that is not only not fair but very unjustified and unfounded.
Sure VJ said possibly, as if MS would do the development and solve the temperature issue, they would be a welcome addition and a valuable contribution.
If you want your XBoxes to be able to fold, send MS a mail, bugger on their forums, do anything but PLEASE, stop putting the blame on the wrong person.
regards
Carsten
Team 68301 - Derek's WishLast edited on Tue 29 May 2007 by ceemosp
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And let the X360 boys/girls be proud of the large selection of games - that is what they want, so thats why they bought it.
And let the Wii boys/girls be proud of...ahm... well...
the...getting exercise...while playing - that is what they want, thats why they bought it.
(sorry for that last one - couldnt help my self - I am actually a proud owner of a Wii)
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To the 360 xbots, sure there are a lot more 360 games than ps3 games, but maybe that's because the 360 has been out a clear 12 months before the ps3 was launched in the uk???
To the ps3 fanboys, I've owned a ps3 since the uk launch and the one thing that is scaring the bejesus out of me is whether I have thrown a wad of money away on a console that is going to fall on it's ass cos of the slow release rate of games and apparent difficulty developing games on the ps3!!! look at rainbow 6 vegas and it's constant release date slips, for example.
Oh and to those xbots who'd like to gloat at my above comment, I'll say just one thing... PSP!!!
To explain, historically, nintendo has owned the handheld market, knocking out all competition. The game boy in it's many guises has out sold and seen the death of the neo geo pocket, sega game gear and atari lynx (I'm showing my age now!!), as well as others I can't remember. That is until the PSP came along...
Initially, like the ps3, there were very few games for the PSP. But look at the market now... sony continued to support it's console, allowing time for the other games companies to get on board. Now, just under 18 months later, there are more games than I can count, let alone ever hope to own on the PSP, from both big and smaller companies and publishers, with new ones being released all the time. Sony now hold a hefty share of the hand held market, more than competing with the Nintendo DS!!!
I'm not going to go into whether the PSP is better then the DS, both consoles have their pros and cons...
Without trying to sound like a playstation fanboy, I address this to the 360 xbots who seem to spend their time on these forums slating the ps3 and saying it's doomed.... are you really more worried that the ps3 could actually give the 360 and microsoft a shock when it (finally) gets up and running and possibly blows the 360 out of the water???
To the ps3 fanboys, I refer to my earlier comment..
At the end of the day, it's all a matter of personal preference...
xbox owners are more likely to go and buy an xbox 360...
playstation 2 owners are more likely to go out and buy a ps3 (I did)...
sorry Wii owners, personally think the Wii is a nice idea for a console and be great for playing on when your friends come round, but doesn't appeal to me as a serious gamer...
I bought a ps3 cos playstation is what I know (god I'm sounding like a fanboy again)... I've played on xbox's and personally can't stand the controller..
There are pros and cons with both machines...
The 360 has more games, but you have to subscribe to play online???? OUCH!!!!!
ps3 has a lot less games at present, but has FREE online gaming (for now at least, lol).
Sure 360's getting HALO, ps3's getting Gran Turismo and Tekken (an online version of Dark Resurrection is due later this year to download on playstation store) and Metal Gear Solid 4!!!!!
Point is, there are always gonna be games exclusive to xbox and exclusive to ps3 and always gonna be fans of both consoles... I'm happy I made my choice. Are You????
I think both consoles are here to stay, for how long though, no one knows (that's addressed to both ps3 and 360 fanboys, don't get cocky!!!).
I own a ps3, a PSP and a ps2. My Fiancee owns a Nintendo DS and some of my best friends are Xbox 360 owners. Just for info......
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If the whole p*****g against the wall contest (xbox got more games than ps3, ps3's more powerful than xbox 360, blah blah blah) could be put to one side and xbox 360 could get involved with the F@H project and work ALONGSIDE ps3, think what could actually be achieved........??
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Is this meaningful information for games? No. F@H is not a game, and if my understanding is correct, it is not remotely decision based. Each run simulates 100ps and returns the results to the server, where the decision making occurs. Although it is about folding, it doesnt appear to do any spatial queries, like a game must do during collision detection. Certainly, in games there is a large amount of just pushing 3D numbers to do the graphics, but judging how much I like my Wii, pretty != fun. Secondly, this compares the PS3 CPU to the 360 GPU. If full clients were written that used PS3 CPU+GPU vs. the 360 CPU+GPU, who knows who would win?
I suspect that Vijay knows exactly what he is doing. His remarks, reward Sony for stepping up and at the same time encourage Microsoft to give him more processing power.
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A: PS3's games are ****ing fine, their premier's dont come out till the fall just like every other f**king console ever made. The 360 has almost reached its limit in processing and graphical capability and will do so this fall, where as the PS3 still has a sh1t ton more to go. Blu-ray, looks 10x better than regular HD DVD and the 360 cannot even do that to its fullest. The 360 cannot support 1080p and it shows. I have put the two systems side by side on my 1080p 40-inch and the 360 is a joke. The only thing holding the 360 in the market is that they released a year early to establish a fanbase. Well, this time last year, the 360 had less games than Sony, which in turn means that the PS3 has a higher rate of out-putting new games. And to top it all off, the PS3 can partition a second hard drive with Windows Vista and hook up to play 360 games on the PS3. So as a PS3 owner I would be saying, I can play your games and my own. "Oh, but its so xpensive :(," you get a lot more for each dollar you spend on a ps3 than a 360. Not to mention in 1.75 years you pay the cost differential in free online vs xbox live.
The reason the xbox 360 works in the US and nowhere else is simply because the American public is retarded when it comes to electronics.
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Gamespot is MS biases all the way because MS gives them money to be so. Half the staff of Gamespot works for MS. I have done my own comparisons and seen very different results, and maybe thats because I was playing my games on Full HD.
The Cell is ridiculously faster than the 360's GPU. The limits of the systems simply have not been tested yet because the programmers have not caught up.
The 360 has a year left tops as a top-runner.
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